Navigating Growth and the #1 Skill You Need to Scale Your Business with Kaitlin Kirk
Episode Summary:
I’m thrilled about today’s podcast episode with our special guest, Kaitlin Kirk! Not only is she a long-time client, but also a dear friend.
You may remember Kaitlin from her earlier appearances on the podcast—this is actually her third time joining us. It’s always a joy to chat with her here and share the latest updates on her incredible business journey.
Since our last episode, Kaitin has navigated both growth and challenges with remarkable grace and leadership. In this insightful conversation, Kaitlin shares her expertise on hiring and managing a team, the essential skills for scaling your business, and the soft skills needed as a CEO. She also offers such valuable lessons from her experience reaching new levels of business growth and success!
Here are some of her incredible recent business wins:
Since June 2023 revenue has grown by 20% ($93.1k) and profit has grown by 44% ($9.7k)
I've myself an additional 19% ($26.3k) - so that profit number above includes my salary as an expense
Saved $52k in business savings
Learned how to invest, opened a corporate self-directed investment account, and started investing the corp's extra money. I've invested $60k since July 2024
Welcomed 13 new subscription clients, 24 annual corporate tax clients, and 88 new personal tax clients
Hired 3 new accountants
Reduced my working hours from 45 hours per week to 20 hours per week
Moved away from being client facing, so the accountants are developing client relationships, which allows me to be more hands off with the accounting work - all 325 clients have an accountant (and sometimes a bookkeeper) assigned who isn't me. I can also take more time off because I'm not needed for the day-to-day operations.
Left the country for two weeks without checking in, and my team handled it beautifully. Nothing bad happened, and I only had 50 things in my inbox, most of which were FYIs and not to-dos
Become a better leader, learned how to be clear but kind with my team and created an SOP for all of the processes the team does, and created an index so they're easy to find. It also includes templates for the things we do often
You are going to love hearing Kaitlin’s perspective and experience!
Topics Discussed:
The #1 skill you need to scale your business
How to grow your soft skills as a business owner (i.e. managing people) when you're a natural at charts and data and systems (or vice versa!)
The price in Kaitlin's voice at mastermind, yet another chapter of income growth
The money mindset secret to making more money that all my clients past the $1mil mark use to generate more even when they "have enough"
The biggest challenges she faced on the way to scaling and growing her team
The grief/hard things she experienced as a part of the growth
Episode Resources:
About Kaitlin:
Kaitlin Kirk is a Chartered Professional Accountant serving small businesses in Ontario and Alberta, Canada. She used to do financial process improvement for a $5 billion company and now brings those big business skills and insights to small businesses. When she's not helping small business owners to understand and improve their financial situation, you'll find her playing beach volleyball.
Connect with Kaitlin:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Stitcher
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Anna (00:00):
Ladies and gentlemen, please help me welcome back Kaitlin Kirk to the podcast <laugh>. No, but really, I'm so excited to welcome back, Kaitlin. This is actually her third podcast episode. It's so fun. Every year or so, or every few years, hearing an update on her journey. Obviously I get to hear almost weekly updates on her beautiful business building journey, but I just heard from so many of you that you've been love following along on her growing and scaling her business. She's really done it so quickly and created so much amazing financial success. But in the moment we know that growing a business can feel so challenging. And so I hope that these little highlight reels are inspiring for you as you are in the day to day of building your business. Whether you are working towards your six first six figures, whether you're working towards your first million dollar mark in lifetime revenue, whatever it is.
Anna (00:52):
I hope that Kaitlin's story brings you a great perspective. I also encourage you, I'll link episodes one and two that she did, or the first two episodes because I hope that that gives you perspective as this episode. We talk a lot about the things that bring you multi-six figure success, right? Move you towards the million dollar mark, and that is working on team and growing team and working your money mindset and allowing yourself capacity to create more money even when you have enough money, right? It's, it's such a conversation with my clients around like, how do we create from a place of abundance when we have success, how do we create more success and enjoy that, right? In our time and in our freedom? Kaitlin's created so much time freedom for herself, so much money freedom for herself. And so I hope that this inspires you.
Anna (01:39):
And she just did so good at sharing her boots on the ground advice while she's fresh from it, of practical things that she's actually worked on that have brought her more income. And I just wanna say thank you, Kaitlin, for sharing your story in such a beautiful way because I think this behind the scenes stuff needs to happen more between women and just really sharing sister to sister what is working, what I went through, you know, what's hard, and sharing both the duality of like, wow, I have made a lot of success, but also it was challenging. It, it really was a lot of personal growth in the process. Okay, tune in and then please tag us on social media, Kaitlin and I, and share with us what your biggest takeaway was from this episode, and I hope that you enjoy it.
Anna (00:02):
Hello friends. I am beyond excited to bring back Kaitlin Kirk. She's done a podcast episode or two. You know her. You love her. She's amazing. She has good energy. She's a kickass accountant and business owner and dog mom. Welcome. Kaitlin, why don't you reintroduce yourself?
Kaitlin (00:18):
Thank you. Yeah, I'm Kaitlin. I am a chartered professional accountant in Canada. I have a small but mighty accounting company that is growing every day. And we support small business owners who are dealing with a lot of emotion around their money. And we are very education first and like warmth first in our approach to accounting, which tends to be a little different than some of the other structures that I've seen. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Anna (00:58):
So true. You are such a heart-centered entrepreneur in every sense of the word and you really care about your clients. And what's been fun for me to see as your coach is as you've grown your business and company, you've transferred that same care to your team. You've really taken such care and treated your team as in a heart-centered way too.
Kaitlin (01:17):
That's been really important. It turns out like I knew that intellectually <laugh> but in hiring it was so important to hire people that had that same warmth and client first focus. And we, I've hired people that were not necessarily like that and it's just not something that you can train effect or at least that I can't seem to train effectively. So now as we do our interviewing, interviewing process before we even get on the phone with somebody, we ask them questions that require a written long answer because we wanna see how they write and if it's warm and if they answer our questions thoroughly and if they, they want to have a conversation. Versus if we get somebody who's just like, yep, or that was in my resume, I'm not gonna even talk to that person because that's not the kind of person that I want interacting with my clients. So that's even part of the interviewing process now is how can we ensure that we have people that fit with how I see accounting and can run my processes in a way that is very client centered.
Anna (02:30):
I a hundred percent Right. And you've really, I think it's so interesting 'cause I think as we grow and scale and hire, a lot of times we're get locked up into like what experience they have and what expertise. And certainly that's important too to have knowledge of the craft. But I do think it's so often is missed as like what are those bigger picture things we're looking for in hiring like work ethic, like being heart-centered, like liking people, like having integrity.
Kaitlin (02:56):
Yeah. I think those end up being at least as important And I know that like I've heard, I don't know how many people be like, oh you can teach the skills that you need but you can't teach the soft skills and it's just true. Like I hate that it's true because everybody says it, but it is true <laugh>. You know, like there are some things that I refuse to teach. I will not teach corporate taxes to somebody like they do need.
Anna (03:23):
Certainly they need to go to school for that <laugh>. Yeah.
Kaitlin (03:26):
But also it's so surprising how quickly people will learn if they have those soft skills. Like I have a student who's who I knew was a student like in the first couple courses of being an accountant. And she had been working in a firm before, but I just really liked her and I was like, I don't really have room for a student, but I like you so I'm gonna hire you knowing full well you don't have the skill level that I need for my like senior accountant role, but I'll keep looking for that and that's fine. She's now my go-to she like, she has learned so quickly all of the technical things in the last like eight months that if I have something that's difficult to do or that's a new process or, or I've never done it before so I need somebody that's gonna sort of figure it out and I'm gonna support them in doing that, I will go to the student because she's just exactly the type of human that wants to take on those projects. And she's learned so fast. All of those technical things because she is that human. So as much as I hate to admit it, <laugh> Yeah. Hiring for who somebody is. Yeah. When they have the, and you're aware of their skill level yeah. Has just been so critical in well in my business for sure.
Anna (04:43):
I love that. Okay, let's back it up a little. I'm like, I just wanna dive right in. Tell me maybe is if people have been following or not following your story, maybe just give us a snapshot of like, since we recorded the last podcast, maybe in the last like year or two, what are some of the things you've accomplished in your business that you're proud of? And then we can kind of unpack like how you got there.
Kaitlin (05:04):
Okay. Yeah. Oh man, I have a team now. I know that last time I'm pretty sure I said it exactly like that <laugh>. I was like, oh, I have a team. But the team is bigger. So now I have accountants who are working and doing the higher level accounting. So I hired the student in January and then I continue to look for senior accountants and I now have two senior accountants. And so we've got three accountants, three bookkeepers and a COO. So the accountants are new from, from last time. And what that has allowed is that I don't do accounting work so much anymore and it's so cool. Like it's cool. I mean I like accounting and I do review and I, you know, it's not fully hands off but I don't prepare things anymore. And everybody has been assigned a client.
Kaitlin (06:00):
So every client has a team or at least one person assigned to them if we don't do their bookkeeping. And so if I get an email from somebody, I just tag the person that's assigned to them and I'm like, Hey, so and so has this question. And if it's a technical question, maybe I'll sort of chat with the team member about what our response is gonna be. But then they send it and they handle the client relationships. Which is just not really something that I thought I was gonna get to even though that was what I was working for. And so I really got that set up at the beginning of the summer, which has allowed me to do all kinds of CEO projects this summer. Which have been incredible in terms of just growth of the company. Like I haven't seen that growth yet 'cause we're still doing those CEO projects, but the stability of the company is so different from what I've done before.
Kaitlin (07:02):
Like in the past it's been, okay, cool, we're stable, I will now take sales calls again. But it wasn't actively looking to grow. Exactly. whereas now it's like, ooh, I have a machine that I've built and it works and it works well. And now my focus is how do I get people who are a good fit for us into the machine. And not to say that we treat everybody the same, but that's not what I mean by machine. But it is very different energy than I have had in the business before. And knowing that as we bring in new people, I don't need to work more hours to make that work. I have the structure, I have the team and the ability to hire more team because we've refined that process as well. So this is very much like I really feel like my job is the CEO now and I get to be that. And that's a big difference I think since last time. Because I think last time I was, I was like close to there but I wasn't quite there. Yeah. So that's been huge for me.
Anna (08:27):
So much to sell Braden be proud of. Right. I think about like the first chapter of growth in your business where you were really figuring out how to streamline selling and onboarding clients and stream boarding the process for clients. Right. And I think now you've really streamlined the process for onboarding and like team, right? That's a whole nother layer. And I just am so proud of you, like you really have worked your booty off to, I mean I think people hear like, oh, build a business that doesn't need you. It sounds like so fun, easy and sexy, but truly it is a lot of strategic work mindset work, right? Like maybe talk to me about anything you want, but like some of the challenges that came about for you as you were truly creating a business where you could go off to a foreign country and vacation or like what came up for you around making yourself unnecessary in the business basically,
Kaitlin (09:19):
Or less necessary. So many things. <Laugh>.
Anna (09:21):
Yeah, <laugh>. It's awful. <Laugh>.
Kaitlin (09:24):
Yeah. There's like the, the team part and being a good leader and like what you need to be able to do that. And like I had trouble with avoiding problems and I had a really, like I was the kind of person that would bend over backwards trying to make it work so I didn't have to bring up a problem to somebody else. Which just can't happen if you're leading other people because otherwise why do they work for you? Like you might as well just do their job.
Anna (09:55):
<Crosstalk> who's working for who, who's working for who. Yeah. <Laugh>.
Kaitlin (09:58):
So learning to be able to communicate in a clear but kind way was so hard and not because of the tactical things. Those things were actually fairly easy. It was like from a step by step actually doing them sort of thing. But like getting over that idea of telling somebody they're doing it wrong and that was somehow offensive. Like now if somebody works for me and they're not meeting deadlines, I will literally write the words to them. If you cannot meet deadlines, you cannot work here. And it's not that I'm being mean about it, where in the past I'd be like, oh my God, I can't say that to somebody. I
Anna (10:43):
Would ne Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I would never say that to someone. Right.
Kaitlin (10:48):
But the people that I've said that to clean it up, they go, okay, great, thank like, you know, they sometimes are a little bit shook by that, but they either clean it up or they don't and there you go. Like
Anna (11:03):
They can find a better job that's a better fit, right?
Kaitlin (11:05):
Yeah. Like maybe, maybe a small business doesn't work for them. Maybe they need to be in a bigger business where deadlines are a little more fluent. And that's fine. It's just not a good fit for us. So that was a huge one and
Anna (11:19):
Huge
Kaitlin (11:20):
Hiring people, not just because I liked them. I know how I just said that. You need to hire for thought.
Anna (11:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kaitlin (11:26):
But also you can't just be like, I like this person, I'm gonna hire them. Like there's specific criteria that you need to understand for your business. So there's things that work for me, yes. But not, it's gonna work for everybody and I need to hire based on those. So I have employees who I, I like and I respect as humans, but I would never be friends with and they are some of my best teammates because they fit what the company needs, not what I need in a friend. Yeah. And trying to, and just like separating those things. It took a long time because it was difficult to articulate, it was difficult to understand how come this person doesn't fit? They like, I like them, why don't they fit in the culture? And it's like, well, because you didn't hire for the culture you hired for like hanging out on a Saturday kind of thing. So
Anna (12:18):
Yes.
Kaitlin (12:20):
That was a big one. But then also like all of that aside, the idea that my business doesn't need me is also a tricky one. Yeah. Because if your business doesn't need you, then like, what are you doing kind of thing. I, I don't, I don't, I'm not articulating that very well. But like
Anna (12:41):
<Laugh> you are, I feel
Kaitlin (12:43):
Like it's a little like, well I don't have kids so I don't know, but it's like when a kid goes off to college and then you're like, well now what? You know, and for me anyway, I needed to be really careful in, there have been seasons where the business needs me less and seasons where the business needs me more. Some of those seasons are called tax season and I <laugh> in the seasons where it doesn't need me, but I don't have a clear direction as to what I'm doing next. I start tinkering with things that ought not be tinkered with. Yeah. And you like,
Anna (13:17):
I have to do something, right. <Laugh>.
Kaitlin (13:18):
Yeah. So when the business doesn't need me, I need to be very careful about where I put my energy because that can be destructive or disruptive, more disruptive, not really destructive. So there is definitely a mindset that of like, okay, if I'm not needed in this capacity, how am I needed? And how does that role change as the business changes? And not making yourself wrong for not knowing what that is immediately. Yeah.
Anna (13:50):
This is such an important conversation 'cause I've seen so many women get success and then basically blow it up right. In some way. Because I do think like as productive, ambitious women we are, we like to work, right? And so I do think we're trying to like work ourself out of a job, but as soon as we do we're like, ah, what is it? Right? And I just think this is such an important conversation around creating success and sustaining it, creating wealth and holding the wealth and being okay with holding more money. Like, and I think you've done so masterfully in the long term of your business of really being able to create success but also hold that success and acclimate to that success acclimate to the wealth. Like what are your thoughts around that?
Kaitlin (14:33):
Well, two things come up for me there. One, I'm real bad at celebrating wins. So in a lot of cases those successes come and I'm like, well, oh fine. I mean I guess, I guess I did that thing. This doesn't really seem all that great to me anymore. Or that wasn't that hard. Like hair flip. Yeah, yeah.
Anna (14:53):
<Laugh>.
Kaitlin (14:54):
So I kept moving the signpost. But also a learning curve has been what do you do with whatever you like? I don't wanna say get 'cause it's not a thing, but like what do you do with the success when you get it? So what do you, I'll give you an example. One of the things is like free time, you know, like if you're working in your business and you're like, okay, my goal is to only be working 20 hours a week, that's a great goal, but if you get there and you don't have anything to do with that time <laugh>, that's not, that's not great. And <laugh>, you either end up bored, which, you know, pros and cons, that boredom is a whole other thing, but, or you end up tinkering with things that you shouldn't be tinkering with or you start taking over things in your business that you probably could outsource.
Kaitlin (15:51):
Like it just, if you don't have something to do with that time, it ends up not being a great, like too much of something kind of thing. Or money is another example that like, I made X amount of money and then I was comfortable like all my, the bills were getting paid, I was saving. I sort of got to a point where I was like, this is great. This is all I need. And it wasn't until you pushed me to be like, okay, great, that's great. This is your new zero, this is your new normal. What does the next step look like? And I think I fought you on that for like a year. I'm like, no,
Anna (16:28):
No. It was just a few sessions. It wasn't a year, it was like a few sessions, right? <Laugh>, sorry,
Kaitlin (16:32):
Fine, a few sessions a year, whatever <laugh>. But it wasn't until you sort of pushed me to say, okay, what is the next thing that I really, and so I got in like, I got invested in investing, ha ha ha I, so I really started to get sucked into like, how can I use my money to make money? And so now like that's, and I'm excited about that and I sort of like, I spend time doing that, arguably too much time doing that. But I'm not day trading. This is not a day trading thing. It's just a how can I use my money to make money? And so funny enough, I think that was like three or four months ago where I was like, okay, we're doing this thing now. This is one of these CEO things. And I, once I decide I'm gonna do something and I have the time for it, it gets done. Like I'm sure most of your clients are like that because they're ambitious women and you know. Yes. and so I created a plan and then in the months since then, the company has made significantly more money. And I don't know that it's because like there's a, a lot of things that happened for that to happen, but definitely knowing where that money was going and have a reason for it was a big one. Yes. I think yes.
Kaitlin (17:57):
So just having a what are you gonna do with the thing that you're working towards? Because yes, getting there with no plan is not great in my experience anyway.
Anna (18:09):
Yeah. And I think you hit the nail on the head with like, as a smart woman doing the thing actually isn't that hard, but like letting it feel safe for it. Right? And so like you said, like if you're trying to work 20 hours a week but you don't like your life, you're not gonna wanna free up more time because it's just more time being miserable versus you're so good at having your volleyball hobby and all of that stuff, right? Same thing with money, right? Like if we feel like where are we gonna put the money? We don't have an investment plan and strategy or goals or things that feel fun to spend our money on, right? You're so good at being generous with your money, Kaitlin. Right? And if we don't have that, it's like, why would I make more money? Because it's just gonna be either a waste or there, like there's no purpose there. Right? And so really creating that vacuum of, it's almost like at the start when you're like, Ooh, I need to make money to live like that. Same thing. It's like creating that need or that purpose to create that thing.
Kaitlin (19:01):
Yeah. And like, don't get me wrong, I love seeing money in a bank account. Like I very much, I'm not a spender because I like to see it in the bank account. I like to have money. I'm a little bit obsessed with money, which is great being an accountant. Like I, it's
Anna (19:18):
Perfect. It's perfect. But
Kaitlin (19:20):
Even having money in a bank account, I got to a point where I was like, like that next dollar didn't give me the same dopamine
Anna (19:30):
<Laugh>. Yes. 'cause It was an up, right. It wasn't, you would master that level.
Kaitlin (19:35):
Yeah. And like my personal investments and stuff like that, I'm like, yeah, like I'm gonna retire. Like if I keep on keeping on, I'll retire comfortably. And it's like, it's fine. So even for somebody who just enjoys looking at money in her bank account, it still wasn't enough. Like I needed something else to get to the next level of whatever, you know, of the money I needed something else to do with my time when I got to that point of being able to work part-time. So yeah, just, just very important to have those things and strangely enough, they need to be figured out before you have them because you,
Anna (20:19):
Which is bizarre, right?
Kaitlin (20:21):
Yes. That you pushed me to have things to do with my time before I had time to do them because the idea being those things would draw me out of the business and I would stop doing the unnecessary busy but moderately productive things. And it's true. And it's the same with money. If you have a place for it, it won't just go away or it won't just like sort of sit in a bank account or, or whatever. So funny enough, it works the reverse way of what you would think
Anna (20:54):
<Laugh>. I agree. It's like, you know, that concept of like, oh, I'll figure it out when I get there. Well, you're probably not gonna get there if you don't figure that out first, right? Yeah.
Kaitlin (21:02):
Yeah. A hundred percent.
Anna (21:04):
Let's go back. 'cause I think it's such an important conversation, what you were saying about that skillset. 'cause I think this is so useful as people listen to the podcast and think through like, you know, what is, what are the skill sets that get me to certain places in business? And I do think that that element of team that you've mastered so many elements within team, but the one you discussed, which is like being able to be direct, be able to have conflict, be able to, as a leader, as a boss, right? Those are things a lot of times skill sets. We go to the grave not having to have created as a normal human, but as a business owner or as a team leader, we do have to have that skill set of like being okay at, people are mad at us, being direct, giving feedback. Like talk to me about some of that. Like when it was hard 'cause now it's easy, but talk to me, maybe there's someone listening that that feels really hard. What are some advice you'd give them as they're working on that skillset of managing team and stuff like that?
Kaitlin (22:02):
Managing team is not one skill and it's so, it, it's hard because there are so many skills and because you're dealing with humans, it's not a, if this, then this, if I lift this weight enough times, my arm will get bigger. That's how it works. I just have to push through that and do this thing. It's a very linear, like, weightlifting is very linear and I use that example because that's like a thing that I've started doing with my time. <Laugh>. Yeah.
Anna (22:33):
Yeah. You're speaking of hobbies, <laugh>
Kaitlin (22:35):
Speaking, hobbies, strangely enough, I like to pick up heavy things and then put them back down. So I think like team, it's being a leader is a really difficult skill because not one skill. Yeah. and it's not linear and I, it's the thing that doesn't feel like you're making progress and it's the thing where you can do all the right things and it still doesn't work. You know? So I know you like to use the term messy middle. Sometimes the messy middle is very long. <Laugh>. I, how, I think I've been working on this for like two and a half years. Like, which is so hard for me specifically because I'm a sprinter. Like if you, if I need to get something done, even if it's a mindset thing, whatever, 90 days, like that's, I can work real hard for 90 days and I will get a thing done and it's, but this two and a half years thing, like I am pretty sure, I don't know how many times times I said to you like, and this is a thing I'm never gonna figure out.
Kaitlin (23:48):
Yeah. And it's difficult to see progress because it's difficult to see the little things that are getting better until it sort of all comes together. It's a little like I don't know if you've read any James Clear, he did Atomic Habits, but he talks about like 1% better that like, if you can just be 1% better in like a bunch of things, that's not a lot better in those things. But together, like if it's 10 things, that's 10% better, but you don't have to be 10% better at one thing. So that team is a lot like that where it's sort of iterative and you sort of get 1% better on this and then you get 1% better on that. And then, you know, overall it ends up being 10% better. Then you're like, okay, now that I've learned a, I can go back to like X and let's, let's try and improve that a little bit.
Kaitlin (24:43):
Okay, great. X is now 1% better. Well T needs like that T is the next thing that needs to be like improved by 1% and you just sort of keep doing it and you don't really see any results. And then eventually it's like, oh, <laugh> like, oh, I understand now. And this doesn't need to be, it's, it doesn't need to be hard. Even like, I, I don't love that I said it that way because it is hard. It's not like somebody's deciding that it's hard, but it's, it's like a, it's like all the things need to sort of come together at once and you're not gonna, it's not one thing. It's like that idea of the, the ice cube in the fri the refrigerator or the freezer, and then you just sort of, it's minus 20 and you turn it up one degree and one degree and one degree. That's not until that last negative one to zero, I'm talking in Celsius, I'm not sure if it's the same in Fahrenheit that you see the ice cube melt, but you needed 20 degrees before that one.
Anna (25:48):
Yeah, yeah. So
Kaitlin (25:50):
It's,
Anna (25:51):
Yeah. And then it's like an overnight success and you're like, oh my God, this was not an overnight success. Right? Mm-Hmm.
Kaitlin (25:56):
<Affirmative>. Yeah. And working through all of those fears and you know, and, and I think for me anyway, getting to a certain point, I almost gave myself permission in this one area of my life to just be direct and it was required and it was my job and it, yeah, it's permission I guess that I needed from myself to do my job for my team. Mm-Hmm. To help my clients. That's, well now that I'm saying it out loud, <laugh>.
Anna (26:34):
Yeah, no, no. But it, it is the heart. Most people don't figure that out. Right. And I think too, it has to be evidence of you doing that and then it working and or it feeling safe, right? If we've had experiences in our life where it hasn't been safe to be direct or whatever thing. Right. I just think it's very a complex conversation and literally why most adults, our brains become somewhat permanent in our early twenties and we live that way the rest of our life. It really does take work to rewire our brains. Right. And what came up for me too is you're someone that is more, obviously you're an accountant, you're more linear, linearly thinking you're really smart. So you're probably used to getting instant gratification. Right? So talk to me about what it was like to work on these people skills. Let's say they were 10 little micro skills, right.
Anna (27:19):
To work on it and to endure and tolerate being bad at it. Right. And, and something that is not linear. Something that is more people gray. Like, talk to us about how you hung in there. Because for my clients that get to, you know, where you are at financially, I really see the willingness to not just be like, oh, I'll work on this thing for two weeks, but, I'm gonna work on this thing until I figure it out. Whether it's two months or two years. Like what gave you the tenacity for that? I guess
Kaitlin (27:50):
<Laugh>, I feel like tenacity and tolerate or strong words because I am pretty sure at some points you pulled me through it kicking and screaming <laugh>. Like, I think there were times when I was like, I'm not doing this and I would just like quit. I mean, not quit not really quit because it's like, it's a little like, like you're walking for a long time and then the walking gets hard. I don't hike, but I assume this is what hiking is like. And then you like get to a hill and you're like, this is gonna suck and I'm gonna quit, but your body just keeps walking. I think there were definitely times when I was like, I quit and this sucks, but you can't stop you. Like what's the alternative? I think I said this on a previous episode, but like, what's the alternative here? Because once you're in it and you need team, you're now in a position where you need team.
Kaitlin (28:55):
So either you need to figure it out or you need to restructure the company. Restructuring the company is a full on, I give up and I'm not doing this anymore of the team thing. But it also means your business is very much limited. Like, which is like, some people make that choice. And if you make that choice out of a place of like, this is what I really want, great, like great. But for me growth is not really an option because I have this tinkering problem. So if I'm not growing, I'm <laugh>, you know, I'm not tackling new problems. I will self-destruct a little bit. So growth is not really an option for me. So it wasn't like, I don't know, it wasn't, I'm not sure that it was a choice so much as a, I can't not do this. There is no other option.
Kaitlin (29:57):
There's no, like, I can, I can't do this done for you service by myself. I can't. So the alternative is to close up and go work for somebody else, which I have taken active steps to do <laugh>, but <laugh>. And then I had a coaching session, I'm pretty sure. And you're like, well, you know, let's talk this through a little bit as I think, you know, talk me off a ledge. And then, you know, things happen and you keep on keeping on and, and things are seasonal so, you know, it's, it's difficult. Yes. It's been a hard two and a half years. Has it been a slog the entire two and a half years? No, there have been times of when it's hard. There have been times when I'm like, I can't put the energy into this to really do the personal work for whatever reason. And so it sort of gets backburnered a little bit and I sort of keep on, keep it on in the sense that like, it's still happening. And I do still have team, but I'm just like, all right, we're gonna have a little grace at the moment. We're just gonna sort of allow it to be imperfect and then I will come back to this with some real, you know, gusto when I have the space for it, usually in the summer.
Anna (31:18):
<Laugh>. Yeah. I think that's so important because I think you've done so masterfully at working at scaling your business, but also like taking breaks, right? Like obviously you're still as a business owner, taking a break from scaling just means you're still busy serving clients and so like you're still working, right? But taking a break from the proactive growth. And I just think especially with ambitious women, we need to learn that. Like sometimes we can see a problem but be like, I'm not gonna solve that today. Right? Like, I could do the healthy thing but I don't want to or whatever. Like that's okay. Right? And just giving yourself permission to not always be in growth optimal state, but knowing that you're still gonna grow when you rest. Do a little push rest, do a little push, right?
Kaitlin (31:59):
Yeah. And in those rest periods, do the thing in your business that you love doing. Yes. Don't just, you know, trade the hard work of one thing for something else. 'cause That's not resting. Yes. That's just
Anna (32:11):
Burnout.
Kaitlin (32:12):
You know? So in those moments of like, you know what, I'm not gonna do team, I do process stuff because that's what I love to do.
Anna (32:19):
Yes.
Kaitlin (32:19):
You know, I'll, I'll fix, I'll be like, okay, so we're gonna do tax season next year, we're gonna do it better. How, what, how can I write out exactly what I'm doing? How can I optimize what's my client journey like? I love that stuff. So when I'm resting, that's what I'm doing. All the stuff that I feel guilty about doing because I've got like other things that need to get done. I just do those things and I'm like, yeah, this is work too and I am happy doing this, so I'm just gonna do this for a bit.
Anna (32:47):
I love that. And the reminder that even when you scale and grow out of your business, like ideally we still love it, right? Like even if obviously you're not doing accounting work, but like you don't hate accounting, right? Like if you have to like sub in, you're like, Ooh, I get to be in my little spreadsheets. Right? Or like, so I just think it's such the reminder. I think so often women say or come to me saying like, oh I'm gonna build this, but I can't wait to scale it 'cause I don't really like my business. I just wanna have the scaled version of it. But the truth is we're always gonna be a, even when we're scaled out of it involved or invested or plugged in or having to sub in for our team. So I just think you've been such a good example of enjoying the scale but be always being willing to do the work, right?
Kaitlin (33:29):
Yeah. I would be a little bit cautious if you're thinking to yourself that I only want the scaled up version of my business. I don't want the business that it is now. That's probably not true because the scaled up version of the business is still your business. So whatever choices you've made to create the business you have now that you don't like, unless you know, like unless you can figure out on a smaller scale how to make it work in a way that you like it, it's just gonna be worse when it gets bigger. 'cause You're gonna keep making the same choices. And if you don't know why you're making those choices or they just feel right, but ultimately you get to a place where you don't, it doesn't work for you and you're not really willing to change it. That's, I just, I'm not sure that that's true. It's not really, the grass is not really greener on the other side, you
Anna (34:27):
Know, that. And I just wish we could like blast this message to the whole internet. 'cause You have no idea how common this is. And I don't really know quite where it comes from. I'm trying to figure it out. But there really is this belief that, you know, my belief is the best way to get to your first six figures is making a job for yourself that you love mostly. And not making yourself wrong for it. Right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> like, people say like, oh don't trade time for money. But like, it's actually not that bad if you're treating time for doing something you love and having nice clients and Right. And then from there, what's the best way to scale? Right? Obviously there's multiple paths and you've chosen the beautiful team path, but I just think like that is the fastest way. But really women get so locked into getting clear on their scaling thing and feeling like they're gonna have to tolerate six figures. But like you said, then you're never gonna get to the six figures to start.
Kaitlin (35:19):
Yeah. And ultimately you don't know what you want your job to look like in a scaled up company when you don't have the scaled up company because you can't. No. And even like, even at where I'm at now, I don't try to project ahead to what the company's gonna look like. I have some ideas. Yeah. And I like, it's not just blindly going, but also I don't know how things are gonna break. I don't know what the business is gonna need from me. And so it's more of a, like when the business gets to be scaled to a certain point, it's more of a negotiation with the business. Like, because it's its own thing. So it's not, it's a little like having, well I don't have kids, it's literal, like having a dog, like the dog has his own personality. You can be like, don't eat that thing, but if it wants to eat the thing, it's probably gonna eat the thing. So it is more of a negotiation when you get to scaled up. So I just don't think that you can know. And so if you can create a job for yourself that you really like, you're gonna have way more energy to scale it. But also you're gonna be able to create a job for your team that they're gonna like, and then you're gonna have team to help you to scale the company and you're gonna be able to support that team member to
Anna (36:43):
Be, 'cause you know what the hell is going on. Yeah.
Kaitlin (36:46):
<Laugh>. Exactly. So yeah, it's that's, I agree with you. Create a job that you like and then figure out a way to make it bigger. Like the first thing that I outsourced was admin, not accounting. Because I'm good at accounting. I like doing accounting. Admin is not what I'm good at, even though it's more CEO related because it's business related. That was the first thing I outsourced because I had a job that I liked for myself.
Anna (37:22):
And maybe let's go there a little bit. Like when you did let go of a lot of the accounting, like in the moment, were there any parts that were, 'cause a lot of times even when women know like, oh, I wanna scale this and I wanna eventually either hire, basically replace a big part of myself, what was the hardest thing about letting go of some of the accounting work?
Kaitlin (37:44):
I like my clients. Like I really like them and I have relationships with them. You know, like especially in the accounting industry, you really intimately know these people because money, like I can look at, you know, a few months worth of bank transactions and I can tell you a lot about this person.
Anna (38:07):
Yes,
Kaitlin (38:08):
Yes.
Anna (38:09):
Very intimate. So
Kaitlin (38:10):
Yeah, you have these relationships with your clients. So giving that up, I mean, they can always talk to me, I'm not gone, but it's the, the sort of day-to-day, like regular interactions that I've now given to the team to cultivate. Yeah. Like that's kind of hard and it's sort of bittersweet. And you know, there are, I have have, you know, a few clients that I just refuse to give up. Like I have one monthly client who pays very little because she's not very big and we have a monthly meeting that arguably a bookkeeper could do. Like she does not need a full fledged CPA, let alone the owner to be doing it. Not that I'm like better than my accountants, but Yeah. But I just love meeting with her so much. So I, I continue to meet with her. It's not really like the time and money exchange is not worth it by any means, but I don't care because I just love talking to her.
Kaitlin (39:10):
So there's that, you know, there's that sort of, there's good things to give up because I built the job that I like. But I've also like this new job I also really like, but the Kate that built that first job, one would've hated the job that I have now because she didn't have the skills to do it. And two, would not have been able to design this job because she didn't know what the business was gonna need. Like five years ago, I couldn't have told you this is what the business was gonna look like. I, like I said, had some ideas and it was a, the general direction we have made it, like the general direction is the same. It looks roughly like what I thought it was gonna look like. But yeah, five years ago Kane would've hated this job and would've been real bad at it. <Laugh>. So <laugh>, yeah, I just think that like, it's interesting how we change with our business and that sometimes it is bittersweet giving up some of the things that we like to do in exchange for the new things that we like to do. And ultimately, you know, if your goal is to work fewer hours, that means giving up more things that you like.
Anna (40:33):
Yeah. And I love that example too. I mean that was just a truth bummer right there. It's true. Like, we wanna work fewer hours and, but that will mean if we love our job letting go of doing things that we love. Right. And I love that example too though of we don't always have to make the financially savvy decision, right? We like, yes, we wanna mostly be financially savvy, but we can have a side of like doing things we like again about even at every level in our business, am I creating a job for myself that I love, even if it's a new job description, even if I'm having to let go as like, do I still love my job? If not, why the am I even doing this? Right? But like, can this be something that I enjoy and be even better than my lost position? Right?
Kaitlin (41:14):
Yes. And how do I how do I not hate the parts that suck? Yeah. It's a little like, like I am good at accounting because the parts that other people suffer through I don't think are that bad. Yeah. You
Anna (41:34):
Know, like
Kaitlin (41:34):
Looking through lines and lines and lines of bank statements looking for something, I don't think, I don't really find it that bad or like, you know, something doesn't reconcile because I'm out by like 50 cents. I will happily sit there for three hours trying to find that 50 cents. Is that a good idea? Not always, but I don't find it that bad. You know? Yeah. And some people would hate that and so they're not gonna survive. Like, they're not gonna make it if they absolutely hate it. So creating a job for yourself where even the times that suck or the parts of it that other people would absolutely hate you, sort of don't think are that bad. Yeah. And so the things that you absolutely hate address them. Yes. Do not just suffer through them. Address them.
Anna (42:17):
Yes. Yeah. Such a good point. And I actually think over your journey, Kaitlin, you've actually gotten better and better at identifying what are the things that I hate, that I just really hate. And what are the things that I hate but I can tolerate because I know there's gonna be reward and payoff for me, right?
Kaitlin (42:34):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and how those, those things that I hate or the things that I would, I am tolerating, but I wanna give up, spending the time to sit in the discomfort to figure out a way to do it that makes sense for somebody else. Because it's not really okay to have a problem and hire someone to solve it. Yes. It's
Anna (42:55):
Better
Kaitlin (42:55):
To solve the problem and hire someone to execute it. And I have made that mistake because ultimately they don't, it. That's, it just doesn't work for someone to come in and try and solve a problem for you.
Anna (43:08):
I mean, that could be a whole nother progress episode in itself. Like, I think it's so true. Right. And this brings me back to like your job. Like what's your job as the CEO, right? And maybe you can give people a quick snapshot of like, what is your job now specifically in your business?
Kaitlin (43:23):
My job is to support my team to make sure that they get their questions answered to provide guidance for them in ways like standard operating procedures or researching ways to do things better. So what I mean by that is like we have a receipt management app that we use because it's more effective to do it that way than to just literally look at PDFs of receipts. Now that's not something like I have implemented that years ago, but that's an example of like, I went and found out the best way to support my team in doing this redundant task. And then we implemented sort of thing. So supporting the team, making sure they have what they need to succeed, being able to answer their questions providing training for them when they need it, that sort of thing. So that's, that's a huge one.
Kaitlin (44:21):
Sales is also part of my job for now. I enjoy the sales process and I think it's a good, I've done it enough times now that, that I can, it's just, it's sort of a vibe check. Like there's sometimes when I get a weird vibe, even though this person on paper would be a good fit, I'm like, Hmm mm-Hmm. I don't think so. So sales is still part of my job process improvement because I love doing that. But also how can we make a better environment for the clients to live in. And like, like I just created a referral program for example, which I'm pretty happy about. And I think that that helps in the client experience because it's like, Hey, I appreciate when you tell people about us. Hey, I trust you to make a good referral. Like, please, like we are a community.
Kaitlin (45:21):
I appreciate you. So I'm gonna, you know, there's a bit of reciprocal in nature, that referral program or like, you know, what's the next thing that we're doing? And I respond to client emails sometimes. Mostly I tag my teammate. I look for ways to market the company that's not just social media 'cause somebody else does social media for me. Yeah, I guess it's, it's really just making sure the team has what they need on a day-to-day basis and ensuring that the company is headed in a direction that fits with our vision and sort of figuring out what the best way to do that is. And sometimes that means asking my team, Hey guys, what do you guys think?
Anna (46:15):
Yeah, I think you summed it up so well and it really is, like you said, managing team, managing the vision, problem solving, like that's a full job. And I just think it like that takes a lot of time. Oh, like a lot of resources, a lot of energy, a lot of mindset work, right. And so I just think part of the interesting thing is, you know, even as we say it, we're like, oh real. But that is a huge job. Right?
Kaitlin (46:41):
And the bigger the company gets, the bigger the job gets.
Anna (46:45):
Yes. So
Kaitlin (46:46):
A hiring team to do the accounting work so that I can spend time doing the CEO work is how I grow the company. Because ultimately I'm not, I'm really like if I have to be an accountant and a CEO, I'm not really a very good accountant. And it's not because I'm a bad accountant, it's just because I'm trying to do two jobs at the same time. So if I can hire somebody that's as good as me or better than me, even even better if they're better than me at accounting great, I'm gonna do that because that means they're gonna be way better at that job than I am. 'cause They're only doing one job and I get to do this CEO work, which ultimately does sort of like, it grows as the company grows, but the more you do it, the more you're like, Ooh, and this other thing. And like, sort of like a snowball picking up snow.
Anna (47:43):
I love that so much. I just love your excitement so much. Okay. as we get close to wrapping up, tell me like what do you feel like the two year ago Kaitlin would say or be most proud of you now for looking at where you're at today through maybe she got a little glimpse of all the ups and downs you had to go through and where you're at right now. What would she be most proud of?
Kaitlin (48:04):
That, that, that I have a team that I can trust and that I get to do CEO work. Like I am just, I love doing that so much. It is literally the thing that I do while I'm procrastinating or it's the thing that I'm like, okay, you get to do CEO work if only you can do these 10 tax returns or whatever it is. It's sort of like the carrot at the end of the work that I'm doing. So the fact that my job now is just CEO work is like, ugh. So she'd be like, girl, I'm coming. I'm gonna get there. <Laugh>.
Anna (48:40):
Yeah. And what advice would you give your two, maybe there's someone listening to the podcast that's in your two year go self position where maybe you, they've started doing team, but like maybe they hired someone then they had to fire someone, right? Maybe they just like, I don't even have a team. This isn't even helpful, this is spending taking more time. Right. Like, maybe I should just get a day job or go back to solo entrepreneurship. Right. What advice would you give her yourself? Someone in that position of trying to figure out team stuff.
Kaitlin (49:10):
Team stuff is worth spending the time on. It is not something that can be rushed. It is not something that can be done in a way that's sort of, yeah, it'll probably work because it will not, it will not work if it's only half done. And you can't build a solid bu business if the foundation is only sort of half done. So if you're building team and you're like, oh, this is hard, whatever. It is hard. This is why not everybody has scaled businesses. Yes. This is the hard part that they talk about and it's worth it to really sit in the discomfort and figure it out because if you don't, ultimately something will crumble <laugh>. Yeah. And I can tell you that from experience multiple times, I have thought that I am at the place that I'm at now multiple times I've been like, oh, my job is CEO work and I don't do accounting anymore, blah, blah, blah.
Kaitlin (50:23):
But I don't have, like, somebody in the team is not the right fit. And I put way too much load on that person and they don't work out for whatever reason. And then I'm, now I have an even bigger load because now I've grown my job as a CEO and now I have a full-time job as an accountant. Yeah. Yeah. So it's really worth it to spend the time in the discomfort of team if that's where you're at. And if you're somebody who's thinking, well, well, I don't even have team, this isn't really, you know, useful or whatever. I, I would suggest that understanding what you want from the company is really a good way of understanding how you're gonna grow moving forward or if you're gonna grow. I know that seems really straightforward, but you, I really don't see a way of growing without hiring people.
Kaitlin (51:26):
And I don't mean employees, they don't have to be full-time, whatever. Like nobody that works for me is full-time. I only have like, I think only half of them are employees. Some of them are contractors, some of them have their own teams that they're working with. Like, it, it can be whatever you need it to be. I think I hired my admin for 10 hours a month when I first hired her, and now she works like 50 hours a month or 60 hours a month because her job just kept growing. But I really can't see a way to grow the company or create a company that doesn't need you or create a company that you can work part-time in, but pays you a full-time salary without a team. Yeah. So if you're feeling like, no way, man, I can do this without a team I would just caution what life looks like. If you don't, you're wrong. <Laugh>.
Anna (52:20):
And I mean I love that so much. And it's true. Like, I feel like it's like I always say like what's more important than being fully booked is knowing how to get fully booked. Right? I think with team, you've really mastered not just having a dream team, but like knowing that knock on wood, they all leave tomorrow. You could build it again because f like, you know, like it's that skillset, right? Of knowing how to hire, knowing how to fire, knowing that,
Kaitlin (52:46):
Yeah. I, right now there's eight of us. There was nine except this month. Somebody will last two weeks, I hired them in April. They said, oh, I can't work till August. And I was like, that's fine. And, and so I filled her position and then she's got to, you know, a week before she was supposed to start, oh, I can't start till October. And I was like, well that's not going to work. You either start now or you don't start. Yeah. She's like, can make it work. And then two weeks later she quit. So even now, even though she was a great fit for me, even though all the things were in the right place and I'm, you know, I've learned all these things, it still doesn't work sometimes. Yeah.
Anna (53:25):
And just like when you have a client, maybe a client quits early, right. Or like, that's not the thing. The thing is like knowing I can easily rehire. Yeah.
Kaitlin (53:33):
Like I think I fired 15 people and I've now, like the seven people that work for me are the seven that I've figured out. But like, I fired way more people than currently work for me. So this is not like a, this is an iterative process and you're gonna have way more failures than success. And that's just how it works. That's just how it works.
Anna (53:56):
Just like anything in business, right. In order to get to the like 10 yeses of clients, we have to hear 30 nos. Right. And I think like entrepreneurship is just that lesson of you're gonna have the micro failures on the way to the six. Like there's literally no way around it. Right?
Kaitlin (54:10):
Yeah. And you know, the funny thing is I always, I sort of think about like if somebody were to ask me like, tell me about something that you've overcome or tell me about your biggest failures, it's like I can't really list them. Like I'm not sure off the top of my head that I know what my failures are. It's like, I can tell you the hard parts of business. I can tell you the things that were hard, but I can't really epic fails. Like, I don't know. I don't know.
Anna (54:34):
Yes. I love this so much. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I feel like this is the behind the scenes stuff that is so useful to women in entrepreneurship. Tell if women are listening to you and they wanna follow along on your journey, just a fan girl. Or maybe they're like, actually I live in Canada and I need an accountant. Right? Like, tell people how they can connect with you, follow you have them on you on their podcast. All the things.
Kaitlin (54:58):
So the website is a great place to get started with learning all about Kirk cpa. That's kirk cpa.ca. If you wanna book a call with me, you can through the website, all the things. My Instagram is at Kaitlyn Kirk CPA and oh, I have a YouTube channel also at Kaitlyn Kirk cpa. So if you're in Canada and you need some tax help, go check out some of those videos. 'cause I did YouTube live every day for a year. For some reason <laugh>, but
Anna (55:31):
Visibility era, she was in her visibility.
Kaitlin (55:34):
It was, and it was the pandemic and you know, all the things. So <laugh>. Yeah. So there please <laugh>.
Anna (55:41):
I love that. I'll make sure to put all of your links in the podcast episode. But again, thank you so much, Kaitlin, for it is courageous to Share your story, but I just think like more women need to hear these practical pieces, so thank you so, so much. Thank
Kaitlin (55:53):
You for having me. It's always a pleasure to talk to.
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