The Relationship Superpower with Jeremy Enns

Hello, my dear friends, and welcome to this episode of the podcast! I am so excited to introduce the second ever male we've ever had on the Heart Centered Entrepreneur — it's Jeremy Enns, who is the founder and CEO of Podcast Marketing Academy.

Jeremy and I connected over a year ago now and he actually pitched to have me on his podcast (which I couldn't do because I was too busy!), but I was so enamored by the authenticity of his pitch. In the online space, so often we demonize things like DMing or pitching. There's nothing wrong with it in and of itself, but the energy behind it that matters and Jeremy did it with so much heart and I LOVED it.

This episode will be especially meaningful to you if you are sensitive and creative and passionate and looking to figure out how that fits into your business and entrepreneurship. Enjoy!

Listen in on: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google | Stitcher

Discussed in this episode:

  • How Jeremy and Anna met through a pitch Jeremy made for Anna to be on his podcast

  • How extending your timeline can be a game changer in your business

  • The importance of doing your part AND surrendering the rest to the universe/God/higher power

  • Learning when projects are good, but not for you or not the right time

  • Building a business as an act of delayed gratification

  • Jeremy's advice for the different stages of entrepreneurship

Resources:

  • ** This is a raw, unedited transcript

    Speaker 1 (00:02):

    Hello, my dear friends. And welcome to this episode of the podcast. I am so excited to introduce this only second ever male we've had on the heart center, entrepreneur podcast. It's Jeremy EMS, who is the founder and CEO of podcast marketing academy. I'll let him introduce himself, but Jeremy and I connected, um, I like over a year ago now. And he actually like pitched me for something. I think it was to actually have me on his podcast, which I didn't do at the time because I was too busy, but I was so enamored by the authenticity of his pitch. And I think like we talk about this in the online space, right? So often, like we demonize somewhat something like DMing or pitch, but like, there's nothing wrong with the thing itself or selling in itself, but it's like our energy and heart. And I just thought Jeremy demonstrated cold pitching me with such heart.

    Speaker 1 (00:52):

    And I loved it obviously to this point where we've like maintained some relationship and now I'm like having him on my show, you know? So like, there's that evidence. Um, and I'm just also excited to introduce you because I'm actually subscribing to his newsletter and it's just an incredible, um, you actually remind me a lot of my good friend, Kate McCarthy, who's just like this heart centered creative human being. And I thought that this would just be so useful, especially if you're someone who is more creative is more sensitive, is passionate and looking to figure out how that fits in your business in entrepreneurship. So long introduction to say welcome Jeremy

    Speaker 2 (01:30):

    <laugh>. Well, yeah. Thank you so much for having me on. Um, yeah, it's I, I was looking back, I think it was maybe even two years ago almost that we first connected when I first pitched you, cuz it's been well over a year since I ended my podcast. So it's been a while and now we've kind of like reconnected. I, I think you had, you'd left a review of the newsletter at some point. And once you left that, I was like, oh, that's really cool. Cuz I, I don't know. I, I like when I first reached out to you, I was like, she looks like she's really cool and has an awesome business. And like, I'd like to get to know her better and would love to have her on my show. And then when you like kind of like almost reciprocated and leaving the review guys like, oh, Anna thinks the newsletter is cool. That's that's awesome. And uh, and so then eventually like you kinda came to mind recently and I was like, I've been mean to reach out there for a long time. We should connect and just like get on a call and like actually chat rather than DMing here and there or emailing sporadically. So, uh, thank you so much for having me on.

    Speaker 1 (02:20):

    Yes. Welcome. I was actually just talking to my boyfriend this morning on voice memo actually about like how in business, like relationships are everything, you know, like even before like the days of the internet. And I think like as heart centered people, we make that wrong. Like, oh, all my business comes from referrals. I can't figure out that. But it's just like, I think like for people, for like you and I, we have figured out that like that part of us that builds authentic or relationship, like it's actually our super power. Right?

    Speaker 2 (02:48):

    Yeah. I think there's like a, maybe shift in how you think about it. I think when everybody starts out, I, I think this is just one of the things I was journaling about this yesterday or, or, yeah, I think it was last night. I like couldn't sleep last night and uh, got up at, I don't know, midnight or something and then just like journaled and brainstormed and stuff to like 3:00 AM. And one of the things I was thinking about was this kind of like shift in, I, I think this is just one of the, the core things to what's helped me be more comfortable with myself. I think in the content I create and like everything I do in my business is just like extending the timeframe. And I think that, especially with pitching, that's a classic one where you, where like when you're first starting out, you're like, I need new clients.

    Speaker 2 (03:28):

    I need new audience members. I gotta pitch as many people as possible. And so you don't really put much time into those pitches or those relationships and everything feels kind of transactional. Whereas when you start to extend the timeframe, you're like actually, you know, it's, it's gonna take some time for me to build up these relationships. Maybe it's gonna be a few years or whatever, but if I actually build really good relationships with the right people over two years, like what is that gonna turn into? Or in 10 years or 20 years. And it's, you know, you can't estimate what that's gonna be, but I think that that's like a, a healthier way to approach it. And probably the benefits are gonna be way higher than just, you know, spraying and praying a bunch of pitches or, or whatever it is to, to people and trying to connect on a really surfacey shallow level.

    Speaker 1 (04:08):

    It's so true. Right. And I love what you said about like, or maybe, maybe I'm maybe you didn't say this, maybe I'm like extending onto that thought. But like, I think for me, it's like attaching to our like action and like putting of energy out there in a positive way, but also knowing who would be even better than expected. Like for the example, like you pitched me, but it ended up being that two years later, I ended up featuring you to my audience. You know what I mean? And I see that all the time with like, you know, in my business, like women that I did like free coaching with like two years ago or women that have consistently been on my newsletter for like four or years, like all of a sudden come outta the word work and pay me like $8,500 in full, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm <affirmative> and so I think it's like for me, it's the willingness to let people convert right away or let our interactions convert, but also the patience and the surrender to not being okay if it doesn't like being okay, if it's a slow burn, I'm totally fine with people working on my list for a long time, you know?

    Speaker 2 (05:03):

    Yeah. I I've, I've been thinking about it. It is really interesting. Cause I think of myself, I've been in podcasting for six years, just, just past the six year anniversary of my production agency, which is now a kind of on the back burner thing where the education company podcast marketing academy is the main thing I'm focused on, but I started product, uh, agency, uh, for podcasters in 2016 or something like that. And so I kind of tie my creative journey to that timeframe. But then I, I recently I've been thinking about like going back further and before that I was into photography. And before that I, well, I went to school for audio engineering. And so I like produced records for people, uh, to some extent after school and, and in school. And before that I like wrote and recorded my own music and, and that continued for quite a while.

    Speaker 2 (05:48):

    And before that I was like, I like wrote poetry in high school and like, you know, all this and I like was always writing stuff. And so I starting to think like, wow, like I've been doing this for a long time. This is, it's been like 15 years at least of experimenting and exploring with this like creative work. And I think that's really helpful. It's been really helpful to me to think about, I've been very intentional about it for like the past two years, for sure. If not a bit long than that with the, the, the, since starting the business and everything, but I think so many people get started and they're like expecting results quickly. And one of the things that's been really helpful to me is just being like, oh yeah, this, this is supposed, this is, I have been learning stuff for 15 years in like little dabbling here and there, and like improving as a writer and like learning, picking up photography and like visual skills that help with design and like video editing a bit here and there.

    Speaker 2 (06:40):

    And like all this stuff that kind of comes together. And part of me thinks like if somebody's starting out and you're looking at that and you're like, well, is it gonna take me 15 years to be successful? It's like, well, <laugh>, maybe it will. Um, but probably you've already like built up a bunch of those skills already, but gets also just helpful to be like, nobody succeeds within a year of like starting. And you see these people like build these huge audiences, but like when I see that in podcasting or YouTube or whatever, you go back through their channels and you look at like, oh, they created a lot of crap for a long time and that never, and it was on different topics and like different mediums and like all these different experimentations. And then all of a sudden, like the one thing comes along and for some reason it's just pure luck.

    Speaker 2 (07:22):

    Like, I, I don't think you can strategize some of this stuff, but I think a lot of times it's like you catch the right way, but the right time, and you're the right person for like the right medium and like the right message and all this stuff. And it's kind of like the only thing that I can think of to do with that is like, just keep trying stuff. And like sooner later you skills are like improving all the time and something's gonna hit eventually, but you can't get too discouraged when like any one thing doesn't really work out.

    Speaker 1 (07:47):

    It's so true. Right? Like there's the part of us that like, has to keep showing up, has to keep being vulnerable, has to keep being brave, even when the path is unclear, even when there's challenges. Right. But then there's the other part for me. Like I talk about it, you know, because I believe in God, for me, it's like really believing like that faith part that surrender for me, it's like this belief that like the universe has my back that like I can show up and do my part, but then there's like half of it. That's like some of it's not in our control and for like control for each like me, that's really hard, you know, but it's really focusing on like, you know, I love Mike duly has this triangle exercise. Have you heard of this?

    Speaker 2 (08:22):

    No.

    Speaker 1 (08:23):

    Where he writes on half of it, my job and the other half the universe. Right. And so it's like, what's my job showing up, writing, coaching, doing good work, being in integrity, taking care of my body, whatever it is. Right. What's the universe's job to make sure that the right people see my stuff right time that the right connections come across me. Right. Like there's so much, that's not within our control. Um, and that's what you were saying, the luck part, you know, and I think in some ways that's kind of relieving to be like, it's not all on me. There is some that's luck. There is some that's God, there is some that surrender. So all I can do is focus on doing my part. Right.

    Speaker 2 (09:00):

    Yeah. I, I like that. And I, I think I've heard this, uh, the phrase a couple times and have started starting to apply it to other areas in my own thinking as well, but like in kind of increasing your surface area for opportunity or luck or serendipity. And so I think like one of those things that I've seen people write about a lot is like publishing online. And I think writing's a really great platform for that, cuz it's a little bit easier, more accessible right now than like audio and video to some extent too. Um, but it's not a searchable, right. Some of those platforms as compared to writing. And so for me, that's, that's one thing that I've kind of really taken to heart and it is just fascinating kind of like you mentioned with people who come outta the woodwork years later, like every time I, I launch my course, which I do twice a year, so I've done four so far coming up on five.

    Speaker 2 (09:45):

    And I remember the first time I launched it and there was a bunch of people who I was like, this is the perfect fit for them. I hope they sign up. And they didn't. And I was like, oh man. And you know, I, I got a handful of signups for the, the beta. I was, I was actually, I got almost well, not double, but like quite a bit more, maybe 50% more than I was aiming for, with that beta. So I was happy about that, but I was also kind of like a little bit inside. I was like, what if I got, so I got 18 people. And I was like, what if I got 50 people? Like, I, I believe this is an amazing product. And I've got, you know, a big enough list of podcasters that like, surely there's 50 people who are into this and, you know, got 18 people instead.

    Speaker 2 (10:20):

    And so I was like, okay, that's, that's more than my goal of 12, but you know, I was like, oh, okay. And then there were all these people in each of the subsequent launches who, some of them I've known five years and have been on my list. Maybe we had a sales call that they were potentially gonna hire us for production and they never did. And it's just crazy how that stuff like keeps coming up by you continuing to be kind of active and putting stuff out there. And the, the other thing it makes me think of is I heard this quote, I can't remember who it's from, but it was something about like, it's hard to get stuck when you, by if you stay in motion and it's like, when you stop doing stuff, like that's when you get stuck. But if you, as long as you keep moving, it's hard to actually get like bogged down.

    Speaker 1 (10:59):

    Ah, I love already so many good truth bombs. And if you guys are not already subscribed to Jeremy's newsletter, I'll pause the link for that. And one thing I appreciate so much about you. I know we kinda like dived right in cuz we have a lot of like synergy, but like if those of you haven't met Jeremy before, you're like, who is this guy? Right. So I wanna like get into a little bit more of your story, but first I just wanna encourage you guys, if you're not already subscribed to your new, your newsletter, make sure that you do that because I do feel like you have a lot of good nuggets, like you were talking about that truth of like the service area. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and I think like, um, some of those perspectives can, some of those analogies can be really helpful.

    Speaker 2 (11:35):

    Yeah. Yeah. It's it's I is, this is kind of like one of the interesting things where my, this goes back to kind of talking about like this long view thing and creating content products, businesses, whatever. I think if you're thinking about it, of like, I, I don't, this doesn't really make any sense to me. I think maybe there's a lot of online business cultures been kind of shaped by the four hour work week. Even if you like, don't buy into that and don't want that. There's still this like idea. And that, that was one of the first books I read and I was never really like, I, I wanna work four hours a week. Like I like doing stuff and creating stuff. And so I, I wanna work on stuff, but I, I think there's this idea in that is kind of like ingrained in online business that you're gonna do your thing and like retire in five years or, or whatever.

    Speaker 2 (12:22):

    I, I, I don't really know. I feel like I have a bit of that even though I don't rationally. I know I don't want that, but it's funny to me when, when you just think about like, why are we in such a rush to like, get whatever we, you know, equate with success? Because like I think about when I think stop and actually think about it, I'm like, I wanna be creating stuff till I'm like 70 or like always like, like there there's always gonna be something I'm gonna be creating, whether that's business related or personal or like hobbies or whatever. Like I like creating stuff. And a lot of that will be business related. So if that's the case, like why are we, why are we rushing it so much? And also we need to really make sure that we're doing things we enjoy.

    Speaker 2 (13:01):

    And I think that that takes, I think it's like when you're, you're in this like five year view, you're like, okay, I gotta put all the strategy in. And I gotta like, you know, hustle and hustle and hustle and like do all these things so that I can like achieve this level of success, whatever that is. And then, you know, what, what are you gonna do then? Like, I, I think it's actually probably better to think, like, what am I gonna do then actually I should just start doing that now. And probably it's gonna be more successful cuz I'm gonna bring better energy to it and I'm gonna have more fun doing it. And it might feel like it's taking longer in the short term, but actually it's gonna be the faster route because I like this is a great example. The podcast that I invited, uh, to have, I invited you to be on, that was a show that was very strategic for the business and was not something that I like would ever have created for fun, like for myself.

    Speaker 2 (13:48):

    And it was like, okay, this is a great marketing strategy that will help bring in clients for the business. And I think it was a great strategy and I think it would've worked and I was totally the wrong person to host the show cuz I just didn't like care about it in the way, uh, that I cared about my newsletter. And I was looking at both these things and I'm like, each of these things takes like eight hours a week. This is impossible to do both of them. It's taking content creations taking over my whole life, the newsletter I'm like, I would write this if nobody ever read it and it brings me energy and it it's the thing that helps me like understand what I actually think. And the podcast feels like a slog and it's like, yeah, I enjoy certain parts of it.

    Speaker 2 (14:22):

    But there are a whole bunch of parts that I don't enjoy at all. And I can't outsource those and I don't care about the content enough. And it was kind of very clear at that point. Like, okay, well that one's gotta go. Even though I feel like it would work. The other one, I don't know what tangible benefit the newsletter has. There's no products attached to it. It's not in line with my podcasting content. And yet it seems that like I get so much great feedback on it that I'm like, well it's, it's working for some way that I couldn't possibly have devised a strategy around. So I'm just gonna keep doing it.

    Speaker 1 (14:52):

    I and just such good evidence too. I think like there's so many routes right now as online marketers to visibility, right? You can do a newsletter, you can do a podcast, you can be on TikTok, you can be on LinkedIn. I mean, like we can just spend the whole time like listening them out. Right. Yeah. And I think like where I see so many women get stuck is like wanting to do all of, of them right. Or wanting to do what so and so is doing instead of really looking at like visibility really is relationship building. Right. As you're writing newsletters to your audience, you're building relationship in a leveraged way. Right. As I'm chatting right now on the podcast, same, same. Right. So I think it, I love that reminder of like be visible market your but in a way that feels an integrity to you. Even if it's not, what's most trendy right now. Right. Even if it's not like, because that's, what's going to last, right. Like that's why your newsletter is so good because you love it. That's why my podcast is so good because I could like chat with my girls all day long. You know what I mean? And so, and guys <laugh>, but like, I think I just love that reminder of like following your heart. Right. Doesn't steer you wrong.

    Speaker 2 (15:58):

    Yeah. There's uh, a guy I follow on Twitter who I really like his name's K he, uh, K H E H Y uh, two, two names there. Um, and he, he talks a lot about like, uh, somebody has referred to him. I saw this like at think he put it in his, his bio after somebody referred to him as this or his program as like the soul of productivity. And I was like, oh, that's exactly like, he talks about productivity, but it's super existential. And uh, I, I think in his, I dunno if it's his newsletter, his course, there was something like that. It was like, come for the productivity, hacks, stay for the existential, like dread or something like that. So there's this whole like of like, what are you doing with your life? Kind of, and why are you being productive? And he has this, um, this phrase follow the fun that I heard him say in a workshop like last year.

    Speaker 2 (16:42):

    And I was like, ah. That's that's like, that's how you're gonna be successful. And why does it matter again? Like if it takes longer, if you're in actually enjoying the process, if it takes you five years to like re each whatever goal, but you enjoyed every minute of it versus two years of like hating every minute of your life. I think I'd rather like, it kind of feels like if, if you're enjoying your life, isn't that the end goal. Anyway. And I think about that with my newsletter where I, this is recently, this has been a realization, whereas I think five to 10 years ago, I imagined like what my dream would be, would be to just like, write about like my life and document my experience. And like, I didn't know, like I was like, that's not a real job. And recently I've been like, really, that's what I do through my newsletter.

    Speaker 2 (17:24):

    And I spend a lot of time on that and it feels like it somehow, like it serves the business in a way too. And I was like, that's really cool. Like, I, I didn't plan that. And it just kind of somehow ended up happening. And that feels to me, like right now I would love to spend more time doing that. And it feels like that's gonna be an opportunity, but it also feels like that's pretty cool that I, I get to do that already. And looking at like, I wouldn't be able to do it if I was doing all of these more, maybe quick hit strategies and things like the podcast that, you know, wasn't actually bringing me energy. And so kind of right now where I'm at, I'm like, yeah, this is gonna take a little bit longer. I don't have like a specific niche.

    Speaker 2 (17:59):

    I don't have really clear messaging. I am not clear on like what the newsletter is or how to talk about it or how to get people interested. And it's still, so I'm like, okay, it's gonna take longer. But I think the, the long run, there's gonna be a huge, like, nobody can, there's no competition cuz I'm building it based on like my, like whatever comes to me and it's not like over strategized and like, um, thinning it into kind of a, a specific niche where there's other people serving that same audience in the same way, all trying to like, you know, give the same five hacks or, or whatever it is to, to grow your audience or whatever that might be.

    Speaker 1 (18:31):

    I love that. I think also like an important point there is like you've afforded yourself that space, right. Because I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. Right. But like you set yourself up with your first income stream in your first business. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> like I did something similar and I think like, you know, Jeremy and I have both like been in business for like five plus years. Right. We're both like have sustainable profitable businesses. And I think what people at the start of their business hear conversations like this, they can get a little bit caught up right in. Um, I at least I know I did. <laugh> like at the start of my business, like I really did need to make money. So like part of my story, I was in a very unsafe with my marriage and it was a very horrible thing.

    Speaker 1 (19:13):

    Right. And so I really needed to make money yesterday. And so I did, you know, and that was my priority in my business is, you know, it wasn't so much like the higher, like the malos like creative pleasure. It was more like, I need to survive here for my babies. You know, I wouldn't have like, so had that at the time, but looking back that's for sure what it was. And I think too, like what I just wanna say to people listening is like, it's okay if it's about the money. And then as you create the money, then you have that space and time for like, where I feel like I'm at right now is like that same space. You know what I mean? Like I feel like now that my income is solidified, I'm able to write about whatever the F I want. Right. Like mm-hmm, <affirmative>, I can, <laugh> like use my platform, use that space and, um, use that creative energy. And I feel like it's just the biggest blessing. Like really what we've bought ourselves is the luxury of showing up in our business with no rules with no, the like with whatever our, wherever our creative energy leads us. And I just feel like that's the biggest blessing.

    Speaker 2 (20:19):

    Yeah. I, I'm a huge, so part, like part of the reason I got into online business was I wanted to travel full time. Um, which they essentially, they have been hand in hand. I think I quit my day job on like September 15th, uh, 2016 and was on a plane like October 1st or something like that. So they've kind of been hand in hand this whole time. And a lot of people in the kind of like remote work, digital nomad location, independence world will quit their jobs, like burn the bridges and like go figure it out. And I just like, I, that so rarely works. And I'm one of the things I'm so grateful for is that I like started the business much earlier and like had, you know, I didn't quit the job until I was surpassing my day job income with the, the side business, which was podcast editing <laugh> and I, I just like, at least for me, I know I, some people like spawn differently to pressure and kind of need that.

    Speaker 2 (21:09):

    So I get that. That's certainly not me and I, I, but I don't think most people are like that or there's this idea that we think we should be like that. And so we put pressure on ourselves, but I think one of the things that I've been thinking about as I've been building podcast marketing academy, which is now, it's still like in income, it does not support me right now, but over the next year, I hope it will. And it's been two years that I've been building it already. And I've kind of been really grateful for that. Like, okay, I've got stable income from the production side of things, first

    Speaker 1 (21:39):

    Income stream, right?

    Speaker 2 (21:41):

    Yeah. And you can like, you, you have no choice, you're incentivized and you have no choice when you put pressure onto cut corners and to do things that don't actually serve the long term vision of the product. And so for me, I've been able to be, you know, really generous with affiliates and offer like really high affiliate commissions for the course because I'm like, I don't really need the income right now. I need to get more students through it and I need to get more exposure and I need to like nail down the program to make it the best it can possibly be. You know, over time it will be much more profitable in the long run by me actually reducing that. Now it's kind of like that marshmallow test, um, that probably many people have heard of and which has some flaws, I think that have come to light in the study in, in more recent years about it. But I think that this, the idea behind it still kind of makes a lot of sense or at least in my experience from business building is like, sometimes it's almost like how long can you defer on cashing out is actually gonna make it a much bigger payout in the future, but like putting that off as long as possible. And just like getting by getting, by getting by like making the thing as best as it can possibly be. Um, and that it is actually gonna be much more successful in the future.

    Speaker 1 (22:48):

    I love that. What advice would you give to someone, um, who is maybe in like each of the stages? Right. Like in that first stage of, you know, where I was like, really like, okay, I gotta like make this business profitable. Right. Maybe where you were, when you were building your, the first business, the podcast agency, and then secondarily, what would you advice would you give to people that are more, were like us where they're profitable in their first venture, but our like finding clarity in their next piece?

    Speaker 2 (23:19):

    Yeah. I, I think the first in the first stage, I mean, I think most people who get into online business have this idea of passive income and courses and all this kind of stuff, which I certainly did. And it's interesting to, it took me four years to like, I had mapped out several courses over the course of those first four years and didn't really have the time or bandwidth to be able to create them. And when I finally did, I was like, oh, like, I didn't know anything back then. And like, I could not have created a good course, really. And so I think that, that's another thing it's like, yeah, it's really seductive to like the idea of it. And it's, I mean, people do it. And I think a lot of times they're not that great courses and you don't really have an audience there.

    Speaker 2 (23:58):

    It is really hard to do at the start. And so I think that's something that usually I tell people like, like find a service you can do like make money. And yeah, like, and, and I is also interesting looking back at all the service based stuff and all the stuff that comes along with building a business. Like that's all, I almost think of that as like the sandbox for the next thing. And for me, like, you know, I went to school for audio engineering. I was into audio and I was a huge podcast listener, but I didn't really care about podcast editing. Like at the start I was like, this is really cool. I get to like learn stuff and, you know, get paid for it and, and travel. But for me, the, the first thing was traveling. And so the, the business was kind of like this thing that allowed me to do that.

    Speaker 2 (24:37):

    I didn't have a ton of passion for it. And over time as I started building a team, I realized, oh, actually I really liked building a team. And I actually liked the, a manager. And then I kind of moved on to another phase where I was like, okay, I've kind of like systematized the business and like built a good team culture. And now I'm really interested in the whole marketing side and the brand building side of things, which is more where I am now and getting into like education and just being more of a thinker than an implementer, uh, or a manager. And so it's interesting that I like never really had like passion for the work, but it was kind of like, okay, this will get me to the next level. And I think that that's what keeps that got me stuck at the start is you just cannot get away from this idea that you like need to find the thing you're passionate about.

    Speaker 2 (25:21):

    I don't think that's a, I, I do not think that finding your passion or your purpose is something you should really focus on that much when you're like 20 years old or 30 years old, even I think that's something like, I, I think about that as like, that's like your, you know, 40, 50 sixties, like then you're like getting into the meat of your life and you have experience and you have like skills and knowledge and wisdom. Hopefully that's, that's starting to, to show up. And so I think a lot of how I kind of viewed it was always like, okay, this will, this will just get me to the next thing. And that's all it needs to be. I don't, it doesn't need to check all these boxes and be my perfect dream business. Like there is lots of time left in my life for that.

    Speaker 2 (25:56):

    And so I think if you're like looking to be self-employed entrepreneurial, like start something and figure out how to make money, figure out how to build websites, figure out how to market it, because like those skills will transfer over to the next thing. And you'll learn a lot about yourself and you'll learn a lot about your audience and maybe you'll learn that you don't actually like that audience and you wanna go somewhere else or you don't like that, that thing that you're building, whatever it is, like that's certainly gonna happen. And so I think when you're starting, like just start do something, don't put too much pressure on it and make money,

    Speaker 1 (26:25):

    Do a service, right?

    Speaker 2 (26:26):

    Yes. Yep. So, yeah, I think that's the, the for, for people starting out out, I think that's the, the place to start. And then I, I think people who are at more, our stage is one of the things that I think a lot of my newsletters kind of there's like a subtext about it, but I, it's not really that explicit, um, is it's really like a kind of self-discovery, there's like a strong theme of self-discovery and that I've, uh, like I, I didn't do this intentionally is only looking back on the stuff I write. I'm like, oh, this just these themes just keep coming up that are clearly things I'm thinking about and are clearly things that are, are resonating with other people. This, this fact that I, I just don't think we really know ourselves as well as we think we do. And I, I mean, I think the way that I've got through that is, I mean, journaling journaling certainly works my newsletters kind of journaling in public in a way.

    Speaker 2 (27:17):

    And I think there's something different about putting it out in public, whether that's blogging or podcasting or doing it YouTube channel or whatever it is. But like not just putting out content that is catering to what other people want or like for the clicks or writing like SEO, optimized, blog posts are not gonna get you that, or like doing keyword research, YouTube videos to find out what people are searching for. Like, that's not gonna help you discover more of yourself. I think it's like actually doing thoughtful, reflective, uh, creation of some kind that like is not something where you're like teaching. It's almost like exploratory. And I think that's where, when you put that out in public, then you start like attracting people who are also thinking about the same things and you get feedback on it. And other people contribute little ideas here and there.

    Speaker 2 (28:00):

    And some something will like, like, I have learned so much about myself and how I create content by, uh, like newsletter surveys and things like that, where I like ask, like, what do you get out of this? Like, you know, just outta curiosity and people say things back and I'm like, huh? Like I hadn't even noticed that, that that's really interesting. Like that, that is a clear thing that I write about a lot a theme or, or whatever it is. I, I like now it's like a core idea of my voice, I suppose you would say, but like, I'm very metaphorical in my writing and I was just doing it naturally. And one of my, she was actually my marketing assistant at the time. She like pointed this out to me and she was doing a bunch of like content repurposing work for me at the time.

    Speaker 2 (28:40):

    She's like, yeah, everything's just like a metaphor. And I was like, huh, interesting. And then I, I started to like look at the, for, as I was using and realized like there are themes among the metaphors that don't have to do with like creative work, but they're like very travel oriented and like geography related and like hiking and like all this stuff. And I was like, oh, that's really interesting. That's all the stuff I love that is coming out in a way that I wasn't expecting it. And all that stuff, you kind of gather these data points and all of a, you brand gets much clearer and your like focus gets much more clearer and then you can lean into it more and more and more. And all of a sudden you have this really clear kind of like idea of your voice and your brand and like what you have to offer. But it, it comes from like doing all this excavation kind of, and like putting it out there and seeing like what resonates with people and what they reflect back to you. And I think that that's, I think when you're like looking to do take that next step past, just like, okay, I have a successful business. I think that's like the next hard part, because it just takes a lot of work and time, there is no timeframe to that. It's just like, <laugh>, it's gonna take how long it takes.

    Speaker 1 (29:39):

    It's true. But it, it you're right. It is like a very unique form of marketing. Right. Of like you said, like it's a form of journaling, but it's really like sharing your heart and your visibility in your content, whether it's through social media posts, whether it's through a newsletter, whether it's through a pot, like you sharing, like teaching, whatever it is that you teach online, certainly it is teaching. But I think it's also that I call it authenticity content where you're also sharing story. Right. You're sharing your heart. And I think like why it resonates so much with people and you can tell me your thoughts on this too, is because they they're able to see glimpses of themself in your story. They're able to see glimpses of themself in your work. They're able to see glimpses of them in like that shared humanity. And I think like, certainly like people love, like what I teach, but I have found that like, when I put out a podcast, like I did a podcast episode called, like, this is my liberation.

    Speaker 1 (30:32):

    I did it like right after my divorce. And like just kind of shared like some of the things. And I honestly like did it for myself. I recorded it as a voice memo. And I just said like, these are the things I'm so effing proud of myself for making it through. And I also encourage my audience to make their own liberation list. And like, one of someone on my email newsletter listened to it and like signed on with me the next day, you know, like, cuz I think like that type of stuff, like it builds trust and intimacy through vulnerability, but like, no like, oh I'm gonna be vulnerable so I can send clients. Right. Yeah. But I think it also is like they see themselves in your story or something, right?

    Speaker 2 (31:13):

    Yeah. That's yeah. This is, I, I feel like this is just part of the like there's, there's like this mystical aspect to, to all of this, I think which yeah. I love like, I, I think there's there's I, I like trying to solve it and like I'm very analytical and I like to like, that's, that's my newsletters, like exploring these things. Like what are these things that like, we can't explain and like how can we put words to them through metaphors and like so that they help, we, we can actually understand them in something tangible. Um, and I, I also think that while I like to do that, I'm very happy being like, it doesn't really ma like we don't need to know, like you just like it, it just happens like that sometimes. And I think that's the problem. I, I think, you know, authenticity's been such a like buzzword or hot, hot topic recently.

    Speaker 2 (32:00):

    And the problem with it is it becomes like the a it's it's not like a commodity, but it becomes this like thing. That's that's, you're trying to break it down when it can't, you, you, you can't break it down and there's this, this other phrase that I thought of it, um, or I've heard related to like, people talk about finding your voice when it comes to writing or content creation or anything like that. And the, the analogy I heard was that it's not about finding your, you already have it, you actually just need to release the hand break on it. And I was like, oh, that's that's, that's what it is like it, we all, we all have that we like and it's filters. It's not even. Yeah. And it's not necessarily like sometimes a lot of advice around vulnerability and authenticity is like, you know, it's gonna feel like scary to like, it's the thing that scares you. That's gonna resonate. And that, that is sometimes true. But I think then also sometimes people will overshare cause they're like, oh, I need to, like, I need to force it, I think. Or

    Speaker 1 (32:52):

    For validation. Right.

    Speaker 2 (32:54):

    Yep. Yeah. And I think it's like the forcing, when you think about like the releasing the hand break, that's not about forcing, that's just about like, just like relaxing and it's like letting it flow, like whatever's gonna come out. And I think you, you mentioned something about like creating for yourself. And I think that that is the key to like successful creative work. I don't think it's necessarily the, the key to successful like business. I think you can be very analytical and like find an opportunity and like go capitalize on it to where there's a need. You can do that. Like very, from a very detached perspective. But I think if you're wanting to build a business where you feel like really fulfilled and like, it's like the thing that only you can do, I think that's where you just have to kind of like stop looking at niches and audiences.

    Speaker 2 (33:35):

    And like you're, there's that comes into play at some point. And feedback is certainly important. And in finding the thing where you overlap with your audience, but I think you need to start with yourself and be like, like, what do I wanna say? What do I wanna create? What do, what just like comes out of me that doesn't make any sense. And this is a, so recently I really, or I, two weeks ago, I think on my newsletter, I published a kind of poem ish. Like it it's about like marketing and creative work and I've done like three, I think of those in the past. And it's really interesting like that doesn't, it doesn't fit into the rest of my newsletter. I don't do that. Normally. Normally they're more traditional essays. Every time I do one of those, I get like the most emails out of anything.

    Speaker 2 (34:14):

    And I'm just always like, I feel like writing a poem this week about marketing and it's these things that like don't go together, which is, I think why people are like, oh, that's kind of weird. It's kind of cool though. And so I think that, that, that's what been one of the things where like I find like, it's always just the one where I'm just like, this is what is coming to me this week. This is what I wanna write. And that's the thing that like ends up resonating most, most with people. Whereas I've certainly tried to like get feedback and be like, okay, what are people interested in? What should I talk about at some topic? And those ones, I always feel like, feels forced to me. I don't get like any feedback on those from other people, even though I was trying to do something to based on what I thought they wanted. And so I've kind of just like settled back into, like, I'm not gonna overanalyze it clearly. There's something about what I do that resonates with people. So I'm just gonna do more of it and like keep leaning into that.

    Speaker 1 (35:01):

    And that at is like innovation at its purest. You know what I mean? Being able to, I love how bene brown, like briefing the wilderness talks about like, there's like no path, like there's no charted, like we're like hacking through the vines. Like there is no clear path, you know? Um, but it's like being willing to like follow that innovative, intuitive of part of you. Right?

    Speaker 2 (35:25):

    Yeah. I think that's the other thing that's interesting to me. Like I, I remember writing, I think, I dunno if it was a newsletter or blog post, but it was like, this is still one of my favorites. So it was a pretty short one. And I think it was one of my early ones since I started the newsletter two years ago. But it was there, there was something about like, at some point, like the trail ends, like you can't, we are, we're all looking for, you know, to, to follow someone's path forward. And that's great. And like can really accelerate your progress to a certain point. But if you actually want to do something original like that nobody's done before, there is no path there. So at some point you have, have to be like, okay, like it's time to like veer off. And like, if you keep following the path, that's the sign that somebody's already been there before, and it's not actually new. And so what the hell are you doing at that point? If your goal is to create something original and unique and singular to yourself,

    Speaker 1 (36:12):

    I love this so much. Okay. So as we wrap Jeremy <laugh>, um, tell people how, if they are loving what you're putting down, if they want to subscribe to your newsletter, tell us all the places online that people can stay in touch with you and your beautiful CR. And I feel like you model CRE like you teach creativity, but I feel like you also model so well.

    Speaker 2 (36:39):

    Awesome. Well, I I'm so, uh, grateful to hear that, um, the, the best place to go. I created a page for anyone listening to this. It's at counterweight creative.co/h C E for heart entrepreneurs. Just

    Speaker 1 (36:51):

    For us, just for us,

    Speaker 2 (36:52):

    For you. Yeah. We feel

    Speaker 1 (36:54):

    So special.

    Speaker 2 (36:56):

    And so yeah, you can find the, the newsletter there. Uh, and I've got another newsletter that's focused specifically on podcasting. I've got a bunch of other podcasting related stuff, as you might imagine. Um, but that's the best place to go there. Um, and you can find everything there. So counterweight creative.co/h C E.

    Speaker 1 (37:14):

    I love that. We will make sure to link to that in the show notes and make sure you subscribe to his newsletter. And, and then Leah, like Jeremy said, he also has resources on podcasting. So if part of your creativity, if part of the way that you like to relate to the world is through your voice through podcasting. I know that for me, it's just the biggest blessing to have this venue where I can interview people, connect with people, do like a side of a solo show last night at 10:30 PM. My voice is like a little bit cracky, cuz I like had like this new framework I developed around like decision making. And I was like, I have to record this right now. You know, but if you're like me and you like to like verbally process and connect in that way, check out Jeremy's resources on podcasting. Um, because I feel like you are so heart centered, you know, and I really love, um, how you show up in the online space journey.

    Speaker 2 (38:03):

    Awesome. Well, I appreciate hearing that and I appreciate, uh, getting to know you better recently and uh, and for you having me on the show and yeah, I'm just really excited to, to stay in touch and, and who knows, I'm sure we're gonna do lots more collaborations in the future. I'm

    Speaker 1 (38:17):

    Sure we will stay, stay tuned, stay you. And thank you, Jeremy. I hope you have a beautiful rest of your day.

    PS: In the midst of this challenging time I’ve been asking myself what I can do to help? One of the #1 ways I support my clients is by helping them simplify their business so that they can increase the flow of money without creating extra work. In this season simplified visibility and sales is needed more than ever.

    So if you’re craving personal support as you reposition your free and paid work, I’d love to help you simplify your sales process so that you can produce income in your business even during a challenging time. If you want support you can check out my services and book a free discovery call here, or you can send me a DM on Instagram.

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